There’s a religion out there that worships a god who allows 29,000 innocent children to die of starvation every day. The vast majority of them, these folks believe, go to burn and suffer in unimaginable pain for billions of years, and then billions more and billions more. Because of original sin. This is considered the actions of a merciful god. In fact, they like to say, “God is love.”
Sorry, but God sounds like a major league asshole to me.
Nobody has ever successfully explained to me whether God is weak, and can’t prevent evil, pain and suffering, simply because he’s not up to the task, or if he’s evil and wants us to suffer.
As for the “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, the game was rigged. Adam and Eve faced the choice of the skinny kid facing the schoolyard bully, ho asks, “If you don’t want me to hit you, say, “Hit me.”” For this, billions of humans are relegated to eternal suffering on an infinite scale.
Sorry, but I don’t get it. What is it, weak or evil or just a bully?
15 comments:
My top ten responses to your post:
1) Where can I cash that reality check?
2) My guess is that the concept of original sin is a misnomer, and not founded by scriptures that were meant to be “establishment” verses ( mainly, the words of Jesus, but also the preaching of Moses, and maybe the prophets) but were extrapolations of partial sentences where the main point was entirely different.
3) Yes, you have to go to seminary to be able to pull those meanings out of those verses. Face value makes them sound a lot different.
4) The Hebrew scriptures ( O.T. to you evangelicals) did not have such a cut and dry, much less eternal, sense of the after life. The leaders of the Jewish religion at Jesus’ time were pretty split about whether there was an after life or not.
5) I met a man who introduced himself to me ( yes, on the mission field) by saying: “Hi, my name is Jim, and I don’t believe in Hell.” We spoke for a while, and I decided then that the only reason I hadn’t followed the more logical teaching of unadulterated scriptures and rejected Hell myself, was my Calvinist roots.
6) “Calvinist roots” refers to the emotional unrealistic part of me that would think if something was good, and kind, and what I wanted, it must be wrong.
7) I have a dream: my reward for caring for babies in this world might be getting to care for the eternally newborn babies who so quickly went to eternity that will be one reason heaven will be heaven.
8) It seems like a cop out, but having an eternal perspective does have an affect on the sad fact of the 29,000. Of course, if they went to a status (atheist doctrine) of nothingness, that might be considered a lot better than the life they were looking at having. ( perspective from a man who still whistles “Suicide is Painless”
9) The paradoxes are bigger than my pea brain can handle. E.g. one definition of hell is the complete absence of God’s presence….yet God is omnipresent, therefore must be even in Hell?. E.G. God is neither weak nor evil, but keeps his deal, and he gave Man dominion over the earth. Man quickly sold it for an apple ( yes…an analogy, and not literal…gasp all you fundies!)
10) Re “all have sinned….”…The full sentence sheds a little light on the intent of the writer:
For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
11) Religion is the biggest problem between God and Man, and people will believe any idiot who twists the facts to tell them:
a. Tells them they are good
b. Tells them their enemies are bad
c. Promises them security and vengeance. And money.
So, basically my opinion is that it's all loading so slowly that we're frustrated that it's slow.
Jeff, no one can explain these things to you, because you are trying to interpret the Bible from a non-Christian, earthly perspective.
All I can say is that your conclusions don't make any sense, because you have reached them by assuming that God does not exist. And to know for sure that that assumption is true, you would have to examine all of reality exhaustively to know for sure that the Christian God does not exist. That's the problem: your view requires omniscience. Christians, on the other hand, do not claim omniscience, they only claim to know that which God has revealed to them.
Everything that God's people do is completely, absolutely dependent on Christ's active obedience on their behalf. To insinuate in any fashion that that work is evil, weak, or anything but perfectly just, merciful, loving, and wise is not only wrong, but disgustingly blasphemous. I hope that you realize that a day will come when you come face to face with these truths, and I sincerely hope that it's to rest in God's perfect presence, and not to be cast from Him, to be separated from Him for eternity.
meaningless drivel
Ok
Steve's response was nice.
I like the portrait he gives of himself, and how he interprets scripture, Hebrew text, and his upbringing.
I think that is the biggest factor of how we are all seeing religion, "truth", and the ever mysterious god.
Upbringing.
All we can do is to honestly look at ourselves, our surroundings, and our family.
Then, act accordingly.
There are risks to be taken, paths to try, mistakes to be made(but who knows if there really is such a thing as a "Mistake"), people to meet/help, fruit to be eaten, poops to take, scenery to absorb, wives to love, uncles to laugh with, and fathers to figure out.
Anyone who says,
"One day I hope you realize..." is missing out on the beautiful complexities of life.
Even a mother that says that borders on reducing life to "this or that". And dang, life is anything but this or that.
That said, does that make me someone reducing life to it's myriad of complexity.
How deep does our understanding go?
???????????????????????????????????
Sometimes, if there are questions that hurt my brain, maybe I should stop asking them.
If there are thoughts that have no words, maybe I should shut up?
Again,
We are only what we do.
And I just got to say something about the "after-life".
The Hebrew scriptures are ambiguous about an after life. In fact I think that many of the writers believed this life is all we have, hence the extreme language, and strict laws of social justice.
I don't really know about an after life, amazing given my protestant roots. But I believe that what we are is our action. Nothing else means anything. Not what we say, not what we believe, not where we come from, not anything but our actions. That is what clothes us, and gives our mind/spirit shape. I also believe that these actions have a longer life than our physical bodies. These actions are planted now, grow, and I think continue to grow after our physical bodies return to the earth.(Do we live on in other's memories, as concepts, as spirit???) There is something quite holy or maybe I should just say wonderful and mysterious about ancient paganism that was deeply tied to the Earth and how it worked. There are simple truths there that are right in front of our face.
Anyway,
Life after Life after Death.
1) Empirical experience of our own lives trumps all else, even scripture.
2) Our friends/family/teachers help lead.
3) If all else fails, read a book.
They're great for ideas and dreaming.
Oh, and one more story.
As a rabbi was being flayed by a roman emperor, Moses was looking in horror and disbelief. He complained to god, asking why this was happening.
God's response:
"Shtok!(Hush!) This is how it is in the highest places."
Ben, you don't believe in thousands and thousands of gods. I just went one more.
Nicely said Liz.
I honestly think that's what I was getting at with all my words.
Jeff, it's not possible to respond to your initial question, because it's a fallacy of many questions (in addition to many others); a person cannot respond to it without accepting and sanctioning your premise.
By asking if God is "evil" or "weak" because He "allows innocent children to die," you are presupposing the innocence of those children. You are asking a question that presupposes a fact that you have not proven, and which no Christian would accept as true. In order to respond to your question, the respondant must accept the presupposition that these children are inherently innocent. Whether they are or are not, I highly doubt that you have personally examined every one of these children from conception and verified that they have never committed a single sin. You actually have no clue whether they are innocent or guilty. You don't even have a basis from which to judge if these children are innocent or guilty.
The reason that nobody has ever explained "these things" to you is because you are posing logical fallacies dressed up as legitimate questions.
Ben
The idea of determining the guilt or innocence of a starving 5 month old African child exposes the absolute moral bankruptcy of your position. What could a 5 month old starving child do to deserve eternity in hell?
A loving God? More like a monster.
Jeff, one of my favorite quotes comes to mind from reading your 'God' blog...
'I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians.' Mahatma Gandhi
If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to join an organized religious group, I would have to chose Unitarian or Quakers. I could just hang out with some cool people who don't take themselves too seriously and try to do good.
God, a.k.a. Omnipresent-higher power-life force, is simply a feel-good vibe to hang on to as we slip each day closer to lights out forever nothingness. Life is beautiful, ugly, potent, meaningless, a rush, a drag, painful and pleasurable. It's what we make it, and in some unfortunate cases, it's what is randomly dropped on us. The God concept, if one is so lucky as to afford one, is simply a panacea for fear.
Now one of my greatest fears next to death is the ugly head of religious groups brandishing their righteous toxins of dogma, and spewing their my-way-or-the-highway dung all over free and once open territory. I'm referring to territory over here as well as over there, too. Today's world makes me pine for the pagan times, or what I image it to of been. All this evolution and development has really fucked up some people, and it seems, to a large extent, to of bypassed enlightenment.
Hey Paula, honored to have you hear.
Earlier in this blog, I used that Gandhi quote, also one of my favorites. Another one was from a bumper sticker we saw in Texas- "God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains, and I had to eat him."
Anyway, I have a hard time seeing where the Christian God isn't basically a terrorist, mass murdering asshole of galactic proportions.
If you could create a world from scratch, what kind of nasty, evil, vindictive being would you have to be to even consider an idea like hell, even less condemn most of His creation to it?
What the hell am I missing Christians?
Hi Paula,
Right on.
Wait,
the examination of ever infant that dies, to determine his/her righteousness?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Is this the most ridiculous thing you ever heard?
Wait, I know..
That cute little kicking in the womb that a mom takes delight in as the first signs of life is really the child exhibiting original sin by already rebelling against their mother, and thereby kicking her, from the inside of her stomach.
CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT!
How many references are there to the innocence of a child in the bible?
How many references are there that little babies are going to die, and to hell for their sins?
Wait,
the real question.
Where are the references to hell, besides apocalyptic poetry which served a very specific function, and more talked about things being made right through our actions.
Only in seminary does one learn how to extract meaning from words that are not there.
I repeat:
Ben: I used to believe that Drivel. And the lie that there is enough knowledge of God to justly condemn every man, but not enough to save them…unless they happen to be one of the elect.
And the idea that God creates a race, then, being " an infinitely just God " would inherently not want anything to do with the people he created is plain stupid.
His law reflects His love. Do you know why God hates divorce, for instance? Because he loves people. That is the same reason he hates bad doctine. It hurts people.
That is why Jeff so rightly ( and Righteously!) rants about that thinking. It is perverse and Demonic, and separates people from the Love and enjoyment of God for which they were actually created.
Each one of us is responsible for our own actions based on our own experience and knowledge. That is clear from the teachings of Jesus and Paul, and Peter and John. The Blood of Jesus is sufficient to save everyone he came to save. And John 3:16,17 says he came to save the world. C.S. Lewis said that it is never too late to accept grace. And that people are saved by Jesus' blood even though they were confused in their understanding of him. I like that, because I maintian that no one has a non-confused understanding of Jesus...he is that different than us.
But that is speculation. The destiny of others is a matter of speculation, but not of conclusive knowledge by anyone part based on holy writ. Holy writ simply states “judge not that you be not judged”
Oh, yeah, and Love.
Original sin, the universal guilt of all mankind, and the need of a Savior is clearly taught in Romans 5:14-21:
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
hey if you really want to explore all these questions you have, here is a preacher who has really been helpful to me, Tim Keller
find his stuff at
http://www.redeemer.com/learn/resources/keller_qa.html
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