I have always had a hard time believing that a document in the hands of the Roman Catholic Church for a millennium wasn't doctored with. I wouldn’t trust them with an altar boy, never mind the written basis of a huge religious group.
Anyway, these believers, millions of them in the US today do some odd cherrypicking. To whit:
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10 we ignore, because we can’t go around killing people such as, oh, let’s say the leading Republican candidate?
You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you.
Leviticus 20:25 we ignore because it’s ceremonial law. Oh yeah? Who gets to pick?
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 18:22 is the basis for the number one political concern of American (mostly Christian) Republicans. Not hunger, poverty, illness or any of the stuff their religion’s namesake actually said was important. What is the basis for the right’s obsession with sex anyway?
12 comments:
"The basis of the right's obsession with sex"....whew! Therein lies a tail! I think Cornelius Van Til said a man's morality drives his Theology...and I think he was agreeing with you.
I certainly
1) really do think that the Bible as is today is as described in II Timothy 3:16
2) think that because it also is as described in Hebrews 4: 12, one must submit to it, rather than submit it to one's whims.
There's the next rub: allowing the word to rule in you ( col 3 something) is not for the faint of heart. Not for the control freak, nor the individualist. BUT if you would decide to connect with an omniprsent, omniscient, omnieverything being, it might pay to just ( really) follow the guidebook.
This all came to me, not as I sought to figure it out, but as I languished in despair that I never would. So I do not have a theological leg to stand on....just what I know.
The Old Testament civil and ceremonial laws were fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ. ("...came not to destroy the law but to fulfil."
That is why dietary laws and the like are not followed by Christians.
The Old Testament moral laws (exemplified in the ten commandments) are considered to be unchanging.
Not that you weren't familiar with this, but thought I'd offer a word.
Nat, my point is why are some laws no longer a big deal and others (I would say arbitrarily) hugely important?
Who decides what is ceremonial and what is eternal?
Jeff, I think you have a strong point here. My only caveat is the supernatural part of it. IF the parts that speak of the personal, intimate relationship offered by God in both the old and new testaments are taken seriously ( often not by Xians and nonXians alike) then the participation of the Holy Spirit, and the living active WORD lead and direct the followers of Jesus. But this is not really very verifiable in a scientific way. I think this is why Jesus stayed so egnimatic in his comments...the point is not one to be proved and codified, but to be experienced and .... well, enjoyed might be the best word here.
Unfortunately, 2000 years of proffesionalism has certainly obscured, but I think not anihilated, the truths here.
Nat: IF Jesus fulfilled the law, that means all law...I think? What does "fulfill" in this context mean? It sounds like you mean it satisfies and nullifies regarding ceremonial, and maybe alimentary. But Jeff's point is that the law is the law...how do we discriminate between cultural specific, and eternal?
Just so you understand I do not mean to bait you, My guess is that the eating, and field and temple specific things were pertinent to the specific places and times...but do reflect eternal issues and best practices.
AND since you mentioned it...what about the ten commandments? For instance the clear description of the seventh day ( Saturday in our calendars...even called "Sabado"...Spanish for "sabbath" here in Guatemala.) I was raised a strict sabbatarian, which meant we did not eat out on Sunday, which meant my mom worked really hard on Sundays, which I thought did not reflect the universal suggested by the treatment of Manna, for instance.
It is all very confusing if you try to imprint what we do here and now in Christian America with what the Bible says.
The new Covenant in Christ changed the law under which the people of God are subject.
For example, Matthew 15:11 states:
"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
Romans 4-6 offers more insight.
But why has the ban on homosexuality been left out of the "fulfilled" laws. I'm completely serious. It's arbitrary, AND the biggest political issue for million of US Xians.
Why?
It was Jesus who said that the moral law of the Old Testament is binding in the New Testament.
Because Christ speaks the truth, I am obligated to follow.
The fact that many people claiming Christ politicize their faith and whore out Christ's church to fleeting political movements is a source of great shame, and not a reflection of Christ.
Matthew 5 (excerpt)
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]
Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
man you write alot
okay, this is my 2 cents as a christian who struggles with the same issues
The Old Testament Law was not binding suffocation but rather God's intention to love His people, ie your life will be better if you follow the law, if you read all of it not just the list of don't, you will see it is a good life
but no longer doable thanks to the fall
enter jesus fulfilling the law like nat said
here's the thing, the law is still good, and what God had intended,
but culturally we are soooooo far removed from the garden of eden some of it is wack to us,
i choose to hold the Bible higher then my own thoughts, (being a decedent of this clan does not make this easy)
and yeah the whole homosexual thing is very hard for me to agree with the Bible on
my take is this is a fallen world as in not what God intended, so all of God's laws fall in line with this
what the church has nitpicked over the centuries does not
God's law has been reduced to keep the sabbath and don't have premarital sex
(note:the blessing of the law has been totally erased from this)
so what do we do?
i don;t know but as you have pointed out many times,
what do the letters in red say?
repent, forgive, love, help,
Anne;
Hey! I hold the Bible higher than my thoughts! ... sometimes....OK Once I really did! I appreciate the reminder that the Law id good, and more satisfying than honey and the honey comb!
Nat:
Keep going, this is a good discussion, but not complete: That talk about "not one least letter or stroke of a pen..." sounds like EVERY PART of the law holds for all times. How do we divide out the ceremonial? Maybe more would be gained by going to Peter's experience and the acceptance of Cornelius? It seems like Jesus suggested a more stringent enforcement of things like Kill = Hate, but then does subvert the Sabbath dictum when he mentined a few times that the Sabbath law was intent, and subject to looser interpretation than the pharisees practised ( as he and his father are still working)
The world would be a better place if we shredded all the bibles, and replaced them with a post card that reads, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love may fail, but kindness prevails."
the only problem with that uncle jeff is that getting rid of the Bible makes Jesus's words empty.
the other purpose of the OT law is to show our distance to God and our need for mercy and forgiveness
there is a price to forgiving someone, or loving someone who is not easy to love, and Jesus paid this price, He died, so that He has the authority to fulfill the law, and there is power in His words in red because of everything behind it, it's not a simple "let's just all get along and be nice"
Anne, this would be a far better country in a far better world if we followed the 3 rules on the postcard instead of Bronze Age documents that the RC church had millenia to manipulate.
One of the problems here is defining "Christian". To muslims, everyone not a Jew in the US is a Christian. In the church I grew up in, a (true) Christian was a non-arminian, amillenialist, non-drinking, Predestination believing, baptized, born again Evangelical. The rest were just the great legion of the damned.
This is all REALLY hard to figure out from outside the faith. This makes the discussion difficult.
http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200
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